From koziol at [hidden] Tue Jun 1 08:44:25 2010 From: koziol at [hidden] (Quincey Koziol) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 08:44:25 -0500 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] call minutes 2010.5.28 In-Reply-To: <3D520C3C-F302-44BF-9820-B528EABE92E3@cisco.com> Message-ID: <7DEAC986-2A9E-426A-B2FD-89E9FFCEF78A@hdfgroup.org> On May 28, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Jeff Squyres wrote: > The short version here is: the Forum has hated all other approaches so far. So this is the returning to the "rip off the band aid" proposal. It puts us in the best position for the future and, all things being equal, may well be the proposal that sucks the least. I believe that we can have reasonable answers to all the negative points that have previously been raised against this proposal. > > We're not fixing the underlying problem (e.g., what do we do for the next MPI_COUNT-like issue that comes along), but it is a solid proposal for moving forward with MPI_COUNT. Works for me. We just need to fix it - I'm getting more bug reports about this issue lately... :-/ Quincey > On May 28, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Fab Tillier wrote: > >> Attendees: Dave Goodell, Jeff Squyres, Fab Tillier >> >> - Failbook, Lamebook, and @BPGlobalPR good time sinks while waiting for folks to call in. >> - Forum keeps going in circles on how to handle MPI_COUNT, enough so that David Solt gave up. >> - Discussing this issue for quite some time (started in Portland last November as far as I know, maybe earlier.) >> - No proposed solution has been satisfactory to the majority of forum members. >> >> Summary of proposed solutions to date (please help flush this out, as I am lacking context): >> 1. Define MPI_COUNT only for MPI-IO functions. Rejected: needs some changes in MPI_Get_count, etc, which have ramifications on other APIs, or introduce new MPI_Get_count_xxx. >> 2. Define MPI_COUNT for all functions. Rejected: why touch functions were a need hasn't been demonstrated (you can send more than 2^31 elements by creating datatypes.) >> 3. Define MPI_COUNT for new functions that have some kind of suffix. Rejected: what is the proper suffix, how do you handle exponential growth when you introduce the next suffix, blows up API surface area. >> >> Action Items: >> - Fab: Put together slides for June meeting (short on time, if everyone can send me or point me to slides related to this that were previously presented, please do.) >> - Quincey, and everyone else: Make sure this is palatable to you >> - Everyone: help Fab make a good presentation. :) >> >> Plan: >> Propose MPI_COUNT for all functions, define MPI_COUNT as >= int, allowing backward compatibility while also allowing moving forward. No requirement to support either int or >int - that's an implementation choice. >> >> Benefits: >> - lets implementers respond to customer demand without breaking backward compatibility for existing codes (ABI can be kept identical if MPI_COUNT defined as int.) >> - keeps API surface area manageable for implementers that don't support MPI_COUNT > int. >> >> Disadvantages: >> - doubles test surface area for implementers providing both int and > int implementations >> - MPI_COUNT > int breaks F77? Jeff says we don't care, as there aren't any F77 compilers anymore, and the F90 and newer compilers are fine with this. >> - doesn't set precedent for how to handle changes like this in the future. >> >> Questions: >> - Do we allow implementations to provide both int and > int support simultaneously for Fortran using polymorphism? >> >> Jeff, Dave, please fill in if I've missed something. >> -Fab >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list >> Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] >> http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat >> > > > -- > Jeff Squyres > jsquyres_at_[hidden] > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat From ftillier at [hidden] Mon Jun 7 11:07:09 2010 From: ftillier at [hidden] (Fab Tillier) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:07:09 +0000 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] call minutes 2010.5.28 In-Reply-To: <91B583BE4B6FCD408F53D1B8F537E09209E2F752@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <91B583BE4B6FCD408F53D1B8F537E09209E32B83@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Fab Tillier wrote on Fri, 28 May 2010 at 14:18:46 > Action Items: > - Fab: Put together slides for June meeting (short on time, if everyone > can send me or point me to slides related to this that were previously > presented, please do.) I have received nothing about the past efforts around MPI_COUNT. I'm fine with just putting something together, but without a history of where we've been, we risk just spinning our wheels again. We're a week away, not a whole lot of time, so if you could forward me any past presentations, or point me to them if they're posted to the web, that would be great. Thanks, -Fab From koziol at [hidden] Mon Jun 7 22:38:11 2010 From: koziol at [hidden] (Quincey Koziol) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:38:11 -0500 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] call minutes 2010.5.28 In-Reply-To: <91B583BE4B6FCD408F53D1B8F537E09209E32B83@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Hi Fab, On Jun 7, 2010, at 11:07 AM, Fab Tillier wrote: > Fab Tillier wrote on Fri, 28 May 2010 at 14:18:46 > >> Action Items: >> - Fab: Put together slides for June meeting (short on time, if everyone >> can send me or point me to slides related to this that were previously >> presented, please do.) > > I have received nothing about the past efforts around MPI_COUNT. I'm fine with just putting something together, but without a history of where we've been, we risk just spinning our wheels again. > > We're a week away, not a whole lot of time, so if you could forward me any past presentations, or point me to them if they're posted to the web, that would be great. I think this would be best from Dave Solt... Quincey From david.solt at [hidden] Tue Jun 8 11:13:58 2010 From: david.solt at [hidden] (Solt, David George) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:13:58 +0000 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] call minutes 2010.5.28 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been on vacation the last 10 days. I'll try to put something together in the next 2 days. Dave -----Original Message----- From: mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden] [mailto:mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden]] On Behalf Of Quincey Koziol Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:38 PM To: MPI-3 backwards compatability WG Subject: Re: [Mpi3-bwcompat] call minutes 2010.5.28 Hi Fab, On Jun 7, 2010, at 11:07 AM, Fab Tillier wrote: > Fab Tillier wrote on Fri, 28 May 2010 at 14:18:46 > >> Action Items: >> - Fab: Put together slides for June meeting (short on time, if everyone >> can send me or point me to slides related to this that were previously >> presented, please do.) > > I have received nothing about the past efforts around MPI_COUNT. I'm fine with just putting something together, but without a history of where we've been, we risk just spinning our wheels again. > > We're a week away, not a whole lot of time, so if you could forward me any past presentations, or point me to them if they're posted to the web, that would be great. I think this would be best from Dave Solt... Quincey _______________________________________________ Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat From jsquyres at [hidden] Fri Jun 11 09:05:11 2010 From: jsquyres at [hidden] (Jeff Squyres) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:05:11 -0400 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? Message-ID: I'm on the call, but the leader has not yet joined. Are we having a call today? -- Jeff Squyres jsquyres_at_[hidden] For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ From jsquyres at [hidden] Fri Jun 11 09:15:24 2010 From: jsquyres at [hidden] (Jeff Squyres) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:15:24 -0400 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7667BC2F-7AD4-4EC7-9CAD-AA6410998050@cisco.com> Apparently the bridge has a "bus stop" rule (if the bus doesn't show up for 15 minutes, you don't have to go to school that day). It hung up on me after the leader didn't arrive at 10:15am US Eastern. :-) So -- Dave -- are you going to have some material for Fab today? The Forum is on Monday; today's the last chance to pow wow beforehand... On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Jeff Squyres (jsquyres) wrote: > I'm on the call, but the leader has not yet joined. Are we having a call today? > > -- > Jeff Squyres > jsquyres_at_[hidden] > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat > -- Jeff Squyres jsquyres_at_[hidden] For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ From goodell at [hidden] Fri Jun 11 09:42:00 2010 From: goodell at [hidden] (Dave Goodell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:42:00 -0500 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? In-Reply-To: <7667BC2F-7AD4-4EC7-9CAD-AA6410998050@cisco.com> Message-ID: Just to double-check, the "Dave" you are addressing is Dave Solt, right? -Dave (G.) On Jun 11, 2010, at 9:15 AM, Jeff Squyres wrote: > Apparently the bridge has a "bus stop" rule (if the bus doesn't show > up for 15 minutes, you don't have to go to school that day). It > hung up on me after the leader didn't arrive at 10:15am US > Eastern. :-) > > So -- Dave -- are you going to have some material for Fab today? > The Forum is on Monday; today's the last chance to pow wow > beforehand... > > > On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Jeff Squyres (jsquyres) wrote: > >> I'm on the call, but the leader has not yet joined. Are we having >> a call today? >> >> -- >> Jeff Squyres >> jsquyres_at_[hidden] >> For corporate legal information go to: >> http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list >> Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] >> http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat >> > > > -- > Jeff Squyres > jsquyres_at_[hidden] > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat From jsquyres at [hidden] Fri Jun 11 09:47:08 2010 From: jsquyres at [hidden] (Jeff Squyres) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:47:08 -0400 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I blame all Dave's. :-) Yes, I was asking Dave Solt. He volunteered a few days ago to get information to Fab to present next week. On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:42 AM, Dave Goodell wrote: > Just to double-check, the "Dave" you are addressing is Dave Solt, right? > > -Dave (G.) > > On Jun 11, 2010, at 9:15 AM, Jeff Squyres wrote: > > > Apparently the bridge has a "bus stop" rule (if the bus doesn't show > > up for 15 minutes, you don't have to go to school that day). It > > hung up on me after the leader didn't arrive at 10:15am US > > Eastern. :-) > > > > So -- Dave -- are you going to have some material for Fab today? > > The Forum is on Monday; today's the last chance to pow wow > > beforehand... > > > > > > On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Jeff Squyres (jsquyres) wrote: > > > >> I'm on the call, but the leader has not yet joined. Are we having > >> a call today? > >> > >> -- > >> Jeff Squyres > >> jsquyres_at_[hidden] > >> For corporate legal information go to: > >> http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > >> Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > >> http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat > >> > > > > > > -- > > Jeff Squyres > > jsquyres_at_[hidden] > > For corporate legal information go to: > > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > > Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat > -- Jeff Squyres jsquyres_at_[hidden] For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ From ftillier at [hidden] Fri Jun 11 11:01:31 2010 From: ftillier at [hidden] (Fab Tillier) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:01:31 +0000 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? In-Reply-To: <7667BC2F-7AD4-4EC7-9CAD-AA6410998050@cisco.com> Message-ID: <91B583BE4B6FCD408F53D1B8F537E09209E438B6@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> David sent me a bunch of background directly. I've been out sick the past 3 days, so haven't had time to put together a presentation. I'll (try to) put something together this weekend, and we can review it quickly on Monday if we have time, and I'll present it Tuesday. -Fab -----Original Message----- From: mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden] [mailto:mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden]] On Behalf Of Jeff Squyres Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:15 AM To: MPI-3 backwards compatability WG Subject: Re: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? Apparently the bridge has a "bus stop" rule (if the bus doesn't show up for 15 minutes, you don't have to go to school that day). It hung up on me after the leader didn't arrive at 10:15am US Eastern. :-) So -- Dave -- are you going to have some material for Fab today? The Forum is on Monday; today's the last chance to pow wow beforehand... On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Jeff Squyres (jsquyres) wrote: > I'm on the call, but the leader has not yet joined. Are we having a call today? > > -- > Jeff Squyres > jsquyres_at_[hidden] > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat > -- Jeff Squyres jsquyres_at_[hidden] For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ _______________________________________________ Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat From david.solt at [hidden] Fri Jun 11 11:41:44 2010 From: david.solt at [hidden] (Solt, David George) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:41:44 +0000 Subject: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? In-Reply-To: <91B583BE4B6FCD408F53D1B8F537E09209E438B6@TK5EX14MBXW604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Sorry folks, I had a dentist appointment this morning and forgot to make other arrangements for the call. I did send the info to Fab. If we want to chat sometime today, let me know we can throw together an impromptu meeting. Dave -----Original Message----- From: mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden] [mailto:mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden]] On Behalf Of Fab Tillier Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 11:02 AM To: MPI-3 backwards compatability WG Subject: Re: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? David sent me a bunch of background directly. I've been out sick the past 3 days, so haven't had time to put together a presentation. I'll (try to) put something together this weekend, and we can review it quickly on Monday if we have time, and I'll present it Tuesday. -Fab -----Original Message----- From: mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden] [mailto:mpi3-bwcompat-bounces_at_[hidden]] On Behalf Of Jeff Squyres Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 7:15 AM To: MPI-3 backwards compatability WG Subject: Re: [Mpi3-bwcompat] Call today? Apparently the bridge has a "bus stop" rule (if the bus doesn't show up for 15 minutes, you don't have to go to school that day). It hung up on me after the leader didn't arrive at 10:15am US Eastern. :-) So -- Dave -- are you going to have some material for Fab today? The Forum is on Monday; today's the last chance to pow wow beforehand... On Jun 11, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Jeff Squyres (jsquyres) wrote: > I'm on the call, but the leader has not yet joined. Are we having a call today? > > -- > Jeff Squyres > jsquyres_at_[hidden] > For corporate legal information go to: > http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list > Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] > http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat > -- Jeff Squyres jsquyres_at_[hidden] For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/ _______________________________________________ Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat _______________________________________________ Mpi3-bwcompat mailing list Mpi3-bwcompat_at_[hidden] http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-bwcompat