<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Ralph, all,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Comments inline<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 17, 2017, at 3:35 PM, <a href="mailto:rhc@open-mpi.org" class="">rhc@open-mpi.org</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I think you are lacking information and therefore misunderstanding the situation. Let me attempt to clarify.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We have been very cooperative and participated in this working group since it was formed. Some of the issues that have hampered progress relate to the misfit between the subject and the contextual environment of the WG - tools must interface to many libraries, not just MPI, </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>MPIR actually does this already, even if it’s “just” an MPI driven standard. We, e.g., use it in SLURM for any parallel application independent of the programming model.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">and so it has become an increasingly awkward fit, as we have discussed within the WG and with you. For those and I’m sure a host of other reasons, the WG doesn’t appear to be making discernible progress towards a “standard” that we are told would be acceptable to the MPI Forum. It isn’t clear to me, at least, how things resolve to conclusion.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I think the WG was trying to have a very constructive discussion and devoted a lot of time to this, especially Kathryn, but at the end (at least that was my personal take on it and the two of us even discussed this in SLC) the PMIx group wasn’t quite ready to turn their proposal into a standard. PMIx is a single library that exports an API, it’s not a standard with a deliberate change process (you said yourself that the PMPIx team wanted to maintain the right to change the API as needed, which is counter to what we need for a standard), full community input from all vendors, and the option for multiple implementations. If you would be willing to go that direction, I think this could be a viable path with multiple options:</div><div><br class=""></div><div>- Make PMIx a separate standard with its own general body (the MPI forum will happily share it’s rules and bylaws if this helps)</div><div>- Pull PMIx (as PMPIx) into the MPI standardization process as a new side document - we can easily create a new WG for this</div><div>- Turn PMIx into part of the MPI standard (which would mean renaming the API)</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Either option could work, but it would mean that you would have to give up full control over this and that we have a much broader discussion. I am more than happy to help to facilitate this. This should be done, though, before existing APIs are removed, which our users heavily rely on.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I know standards work is slow and sometimes painful and unsatisfying in the short term, but it will pay off at the end.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">This move has nothing to do with PMIx itself or its current state. The primary motivating factor behind this decision is that I am retiring in two years, and am meanwhile taking on other responsibilities that are soaking up my time and reducing my ability to support OMPI. I have provided the runtime MPIR support in OMPI for 13 years. The MPIR interface is extremely fragile and continually breaking, especially the extensions that I personally implemented to support LLNL’s prior requests long before anyone accepted them in the overall MPIR “community". I quite simply no longer have time to support it, and certainly won’t support it after I retire!</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>While I understand this from a personal level, this is (IMHO) not a good reason from a project point of view - does this mean, if the person dealing with collectives retires, Open MPI won’t support collectives any more or won’t implement persistent collectives should they be added to the standard? Even though MPIR is in a side document, this doesn’t mean it is less important or less needed by our users. If we don’t have a portable way to debug MPI applications anymore, this could endanger the whole standard.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Unlike other implementations, we are totally driven by individual developer contributions - we don’t have a DOE or corporation that directly funds this community. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>DOE currently funds both MPICH and Open MPI - I don’t know the exact dollar amounts from the top of my hat, but both projects are substantial (and Open MPI has much more support from industry partners). Even though I personally work with the OMPI-X team, I would say Open MPI has less to complain about than MPICH, which has been working hard to stay alive.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Btw. the reason why we (as in DOE and ECP) want two MPIs and are supporting two MPIs is for risk mitigation - i.e., if we run into bugs, we need to be able to switch MPI implementations for debugging - if now the debugging tool chains are no longer compatible what is the real value of two MPIs, why not just support one? If I would be responsible for the programming models in ECP, I would list Open MPI no longer supporting the only widely accepted and MPI forum approved debugging interface as a significant risk for exascale.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">After apprising the OMPI community of the situation, we asked if anyone was interested/willing to take on this responsibility. The answer was “NO”, except for Nathan Hjelm indicating he would try (not reassuring given everything on his plate).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I can fit support for the PMIx tool integration we have implemented, as developed in partnership with John last year, under my evolving responsibilities. This buys OMPI two years. It also makes it easier for others in the community to pickup tool support going forward as community members (e.g., IBM) are aggressively building PMIx-enabled tools.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>This assumes that everyone accepts PMPIx as the solution and that is far from clear, especially as long as the API is controlled by a single group tied to one MPI implementation and not by a more general body. The more likely scenario, IMHO, is that each implementation would diverge into their own extensions and then we really have a mess (if Open MPI goes rogue, why can’t others?) - we would need a different debugger for each MPI.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Thus, the conclusion of the community was that given we don’t have anyone willing to reliably assume responsibility for MPIR support, deprecation provides tool vendors with 1-2 years of warning that the situation will change. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Again, why is this different from no longer wanting to support collectives? Is support for a portable development environment really that low on the priority scale for Open MPI? That would be really disappointing, especially all the hard work in the tools WG with substantial contributions and time investment from the Open MPI team!</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">It also gives this WG the same time to come up with an alternative suggestion, or for someone to stand up and take on the support in OMPI. We happily welcome patches!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As for your contracts - LLNL is welcome to add MPIR support to its contracts! </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>It’s in there and (I would assume, not my call) will likely continue to be.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I’m sure a vendor would, if appropriately compensated, be happy to assume the responsibility if you deem it that critical. Please note that I specifically alerted LLNL (and TotalView, due to the prior collaboration) to the situation months ago, so this isn’t something that suddenly jumped out of the bushes.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>It’s not just TV, there are other community tools as well, plus resource managers. This step is basically turning a situation with a portable interface (which we finally turned into a real portable solution thanks to the tools WG) into an MxN solution, which can’t be what we want going forward.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I still have to stick with what I said before - I hope the Open MPI team will reconsider and stick with the MPI forum approved interfaces, at least until a new community solution has been accepted. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>Martin</div><div><br class=""></div><div>PS: Please don’t take this response personal, but I felt I had to respond so directly, since I see this as a threat to the standard itself- IMHO this could erode the value of what the MPI forum does.</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">HTH</div><div class="">Ralph</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 17, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Martin Schulz <<a href="mailto:schulzm@llnl.gov" class="">schulzm@llnl.gov</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Jeff and Ralph,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am really concerned about this step and I think this is a huge step in the wrong direction - both from a user and a standards perspective. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As of now PMIx is an implementation specific interface (just alone from the fact that the Open MPI community hosts the interface and controls its interface definition); it’s definitely not a community interface, as we have it with the (MPI Forum approved!) MPIR interface. We have contracts that require MPIR for upcoming machines (well beyond the timeframe below) and we have tools that rely on it - this step, if really executed, will de facto kill portable debugging for MPI (and, IMHO, one of the nice features we always claim for MPI). Large tools (like TV) can work around it (for a cost, though), but the many smaller tools that are coming from the open source community will have a hard time.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It also diminishes the role and importance of our MPI side documents, which we have fought for so hard - if they suddenly become optional and only implemented by a subset of implementations, what’s their point?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you want PMIx as the MPIR interface (which, I agree, there are some good technical reasons), we should really make this a standard in a much more community effort and control under the umbrella of the MPI forum (or a similar body) and make sure it gets agreed on and accepted by all major implementors before removing the current portable interface. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I hope the Open MPI community will rethink this step,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Martin</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 14, 2017, at 2:14 AM, <a href="mailto:rhc@open-mpi.org" class="">rhc@open-mpi.org</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">We will deprecate for v3.1 (expected out this fall), and may phase it out sometime in 2018 with the release of OMPI 4.0, or maybe as late as 2019. No real schedule has been developed yet. We are just trying to provide folks like you with as much notice as possible. You should plan on at least one year to get ready.<div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 13, 2017, at 9:03 AM, John DelSignore <<a href="mailto:John.DelSignore@roguewave.com" class="">John.DelSignore@roguewave.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><p class="">Ouch. Have you decided what the deprecation time line looks like
yet? In other words, when do you think that Open MPI will <u class="">stop</u>
supporting MPIR?<br class="">
</p><p class="">Cheers, John D.<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/13/17 08:00, Jeff Squyres
(jsquyres) wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:4C44C960-B8E1-4A13-94B6-ABF970F6731C@cisco.com" type="cite" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">FWIW, we just decided this week in Open MPI to deprecate the MPIR interface in favor of PMIx.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">On Jul 12, 2017, at 2:02 PM, Durnov, Dmitry <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dmitry.durnov@intel.com"><dmitry.durnov@intel.com></a> wrote:
Sure.
Thanks.
BR,
Dmitry
-----Original Message-----
From: mpiwg-tools [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mpiwg-tools-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org">mailto:mpiwg-tools-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>] On Behalf Of John DelSignore
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 9:52 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpiwg-tools@lists.mpi-forum.org">mpiwg-tools@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>
Subject: Re: [mpiwg-tools] Intel MPI Backend Breakpoint
I'd be interested in being included in that discussion. FWIW, I work on the TotalView debugger and wrote-up the MPIR specification.
Cheers, John D.
-----Original Message-----
From: mpiwg-tools [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mpiwg-tools-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org">mailto:mpiwg-tools-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>] On Behalf Of Durnov, Dmitry
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:44 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpiwg-tools@lists.mpi-forum.org">mpiwg-tools@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>
Subject: Re: [mpiwg-tools] Intel MPI Backend Breakpoint
Hi Alex,
I've started a separate mail thread where we may discuss details.
Thanks.
BR,
Dmitry
-----Original Message-----
From: mpiwg-tools [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mpiwg-tools-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org">mailto:mpiwg-tools-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>] On Behalf Of Alexander Zahdeh
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 7:27 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpiwg-tools@lists.mpi-forum.org">mpiwg-tools@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>
Subject: [mpiwg-tools] Intel MPI Backend Breakpoint
Hi,
This is Alex Zahdeh, one of the debugger tools developers at Cray. I had a question about how Intel MPI handles synchronization according to the MPIR debugging standard. The usual procedure for our debugger is to launch tool daemons to attach to the backend application processes while the application launcher is held at MPIR_Breakpoint. At this point the application process must be in some sort of barrier so the debugger tries to return the user to their own code by setting breakpoints at various initialization symbols for different parallel models, continuing, hitting one of the breakpoints, deleting the rest and finishing the current function. This works if the application is held before the breakpoints we set which does not seem to be the case with Intel MPI. Is there a more standard approach to returning the user to their own code or does it vary by programming model and implementor? And specifically with Intel MPI would there be a good breakpoint to set in this scenari
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="" class=""> o?
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre wrap="" class="">Thanks much,
Alex
--
Alex Zahdeh | PE Debugger Development | Cray Inc.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:azahdeh@cray.com">azahdeh@cray.com</a> | Office: 651-967-9628 | Cell: 651-300-2005 _______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="" class=""></pre>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
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