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Hi Aurélien,
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<div class="">I really need to get convinced that sessions, as the interface is proposed, is a first step in achieving new capabilities</div>
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<div class="">See, for example, Ralph’s response to this point.</div>
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<div class="">(beyond fixing the threaded initialization problem).</div>
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<div class="">Note: there are no other proposals that fix the threaded initialisation problem. This is not a trivial point. Even if sessions only provided a fix for this issue, it may still be worth providing this additional mechanism.</div>
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<div class="">Most of the thread-safety capabilities we are talking about, especially when hidden behind the request, can be achieved per-communicator with INFO keys, for example.
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<div class="">Per-communicator scope is too fine-grained. Per-MPI process scope is too coarse-grained. Per-Session scope is just right (because its granularity is controllable). Also, the necessary INFO keys would break (or “selectively turn off” is less emotive)
fundamental MPI semantics like the progress rule.</div>
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<div class="">Thus, in this case (and some others) sessions, as a concept, are not really improving on the state of the art,</div>
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<div class="">I disagree with this statement.</div>
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<div class="">or provide a more elegant interface to achieve the goal.</div>
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<div class="">Elegance is a subjective quality. I believe the proposed sessions interface is at least as elegant as many existing MPI interface design choices.</div>
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<div class="">I hope that helps clarify my objections, which are not that sessions 'cannot do it’, but more on the line that often ’communicators can do it equally well’.
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Communicators cannot do “it" equally well - without the help of several not-yet existing INFO keys (and even then it depends on what “it” is). Fixing the threaded initialisation problem cannot be done with communicator INFO keys. Associating several communicators
with a set of resources and a common progress engine (different to other communicators) would need a sessions concept to be re-invented and specified via INFO keys. New INFO keys require additional standardisation effort in order to exist and to be as portable
as the rest of the MPI Standard. Thus, for the foreseeable future (certainly as far as MPI-4 inclusive), communicators cannot do it equally well.</div>
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Cheers,</div>
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Dan.</div>
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—<br class="">
Dr Daniel Holmes PhD<br class="">
Applications Consultant in HPC Research<br class="">
<a href="mailto:d.holmes@epcc.ed.ac.uk" class="">d.holmes@epcc.ed.ac.uk</a><br class="">
Phone: +44 (0) 131 651 3465<br class="">
Mobile: +44 (0) 7940 524 088<br class="">
Address: Room 2.09, Bayes Centre, 47 Potterrow, Central Area, Edinburgh, EH8 9BT</div>
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—</div>
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The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.</div>
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—</div>
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<div class="">On 23 Apr 2019, at 20:48, Aurelien Bouteiller <<a href="mailto:bouteill@icl.utk.edu" class="">bouteill@icl.utk.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
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Guys, unfortunately I couldn’t attend the latest telecon, but I have been following the discussion from a distance. I’ll take the time to review the minutes of latest meetings. Is there one in particular that is summarizing the discussion?
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<div class="">Now my reticence is not only about thread levels. I really need to get convinced that sessions, as the interface is proposed, is a first step in achieving new capabilities (beyond fixing the threaded initialization problem). Most of the thread-safety
capabilities we are talking about, especially when hidden behind the request, can be achieved with per-communicator with INFO keys, for example. Thus, in this case (and some others) sessions, as a concept, are not really improving on the state of the art,
or provide a more elegant interface to achieve the goal. I hope that helps clarify my objections, which are not that sessions 'cannot do it’, but more on the line that often ’communicators can do it equally well’.
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Best,</div>
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Aurelien</div>
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<div class="">On Apr 22, 2019, at 12:47, HOLMES Daniel via mpiwg-sessions <<a href="mailto:mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org" class="">mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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Hi Howard,
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<div class="">I’ll be there today.</div>
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<div class="">We need to figure out what our purpose is for the meeting on 24th April - or cancel our involvement. Martin added two for us so they existed but we don’t have to use the 2nd one if we have nothing new to present/ask/etc.</div>
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<div class="">Point of information: the "function pointers” group just decided today that explicit function pointers as part of the MPI user-facing interface, are not necessary for any of the use-cases for which they were proposed. Thus, we are likely not going
to get function pointers + sessions any time ever. This is not a bad thing because one of those driving use-cases for function pointers was sessions - we convinced ourselves that the function pointers needed for sessions, e.g. to support different thread support
levels, can be hidden behind the existing MPI functions and opaque handles. For example, the MPI_Request handle could lead to a function pointer for the actual “wait” function inside the MPI library and another for the actual “test” function. The MPI_WAIT
and MPI_TEST functions will then be implemented as straightforward delegation shim functions that call down into the appropriate function pointer from the passed-in MPI_Request parameter. We should socialise that proposed approach with Aurelien (in particular)
because he voted against sessions in the Chattanooga straw poll because of the perceived lack of support for multiple thread support levels in use at the same time.<br class="">
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Cheers,</div>
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Dan.</div>
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—<br class="">
Dr Daniel Holmes PhD<br class="">
Applications Consultant in HPC Research<br class="">
<a href="mailto:d.holmes@epcc.ed.ac.uk" class="">d.holmes@epcc.ed.ac.uk</a><br class="">
Phone: +44 (0) 131 651 3465<br class="">
Mobile: +44 (0) 7940 524 088<br class="">
Address: Room 2.09, Bayes Centre, 47 Potterrow, Central Area, Edinburgh, EH8 9BT</div>
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—</div>
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The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.</div>
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—</div>
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<div class="">On 22 Apr 2019, at 17:16, Pritchard Jr.,<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">
</span>Howard via mpiwg-sessions <<a href="mailto:mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org" class="">mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">HI Sessions activists,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">If possible, I’d like to meet today to discuss<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<a href="https://github.com/mpiwg-sessions/mpi-standard/pull/27" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://github.com/mpiwg-sessions/mpi-standard/pull/27</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">and<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="https://github.com/mpiwg-sessions/mpi-standard/pull/26" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://github.com/mpiwg-sessions/mpi-standard/pull/26</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">as well as what to knock off next in<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<a href="https://github.com/mpiwg-sessions/sessions-issues/issues/10" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://github.com/mpiwg-sessions/sessions-issues/issues/10</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Reminder we have an hour in the upcoming virtual forum on 4/24.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Thanks,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Howard<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">-- <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">Howard Pritchard<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">HPC-ENV<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">Los Alamos National Laboratory<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">mpiwg-sessions
mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="mailto:mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="https://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo/mpiwg-sessions" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo/mpiwg-sessions</a></div>
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_______________________________________________<br class="">
mpiwg-sessions mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org" class="">mpiwg-sessions@lists.mpi-forum.org</a><br class="">
<a href="https://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo/mpiwg-sessions" class="">https://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo/mpiwg-sessions</a><br class="">
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