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Dan and I discussed this and below is an email that I had exchanged with Jim.
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<div class="">My notes seems to differ from what Rohit suggests. I will not be able to join the meeting tomorrow, but hopefully we will get to an agreement. </div>
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<div class="">Thanks</div>
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<div class="">Maria</div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">Jim</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">Dan and I discuss this a bit today. This is where we landed:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">1) Do we need a default?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">If there is one, it is well defined and it is only <mpi, system>. This default is just a shortcut and seems unneeded, but it is fine to keep it.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">But there is no need to have default.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">We do not want a default that is not well defined (or one that can be implementation specific</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">2) The user gets what they request (if supported), but they could get more.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">If the user requests “ ”, it could get nothing or whatever the library wants to provide.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">We recommend to have an advice to users so that they know that if they do not include default or do not include <mpi,system> they may not get it.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">3) Assert can only use default if it is well defined, as <mpi, system>. Otherwise, it cannot use it.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">4) If the user does not request anything through the mechanism in the new proposal, the user always gets mpi and system, as if they had requested mpi and system.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">There were a couple of question about:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">1) If the user requests (default), should the answer in the provided include (default). </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">The provided should always include everything that is supported. The answer provided should contain default only if a) default exists (see 1) and b) it was requested. We do not want a default keyword, but if one exists,
and it is well defined as <mpi,system>, then it should be returned if it was included in the original request. </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">2) If the answer includes default, can I use that in the assert()? This should be answered in 3) above. </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">- If it is well defined, it can be used, as in this case default is just a shortcut for <system,mpi></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">- If it not well defined, it should definitely not be used (but we do no want that default, regardless)</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">Thanks</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt;" class="">Maria</span></div>
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<div class="">On Apr 4, 2023, at 6:25 PM, Rohit Zambre via mpiwg-hybridpm <<a href="mailto:mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org" class="">mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Hi,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Jotting down my thoughts from last week’s discussion on defaults in the memory allocation kind proposal.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">The main issue, in my view, is regarding the need for the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">default</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword (underline formatting to represent the keyword)
in the standard.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">I think both parties, for and against the keyword, agree on the need for the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">default</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>concept in the standard (italics
formatting to represent the concept).<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">At first, I was on the side of the “against” party, but based on the example and comments made during the discussion, I realized that we may lose some flexibility in what the user is able to request without the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">default</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Particularly, in cases where an MPI library’s<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">default</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>supports different kinds of memory, without the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">default</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword,
MPI users would lose the flexibility of requesting support for only a subset (e.g. for optimal performance) of the kinds supported in the MPI library’s<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">default</i>. Without the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">default</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword,
the users would need fallback to non-standard library-specific ways of turning off support.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Assume we have two MPI libraries. Both support<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Roboto Mono";" class="">system, mpi, gpu, xpu, ypu</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>kinds.
They differ in their defaults.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">libmpi_A’s<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">default</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>includes support for<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Roboto Mono";" class="">system,
mpi, gpu, xpu, ypu</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">libmpi_B’s<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">default</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>includes support for<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: "Roboto Mono";" class="">system,
mpi</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; background-color: yellow;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; background-color: yellow;" class="">With</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">default</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword
in the standard<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Roboto Mono";" class="">MPI_Info_set(info, “mpi_assert_memory_alloc_kind”, “default, gpu”); <---<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">In libmpi_A, gpu is part of its<i class="">default.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>libmpi_B
will add support for gpu kind.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Roboto Mono";" class="">MPI_Info_set(info, “mpi_assert_memory_alloc_kind”, “gpu”); <---<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">libmpi_A will turn off support for xpu and ypu kinds.
libmpi_B will add in support for gpu kind.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; background-color: yellow;" class="">Without</span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">default</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword
in the standard<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-family: "Roboto Mono";" class="">MPI_Info_set(info, “mpi_assert_memory_alloc_kind”, “gpu”); <---<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">it is ambiguous for libmpi_A whether the user wants
gpu kind only, or at least gpu kind. libmpi_B will add in support for gpu kind.</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Roboto Mono";" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">I am not sure if there would be a standard way to turn off support for kinds in a library’s<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">default</i>without the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">default</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>keyword.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Rohit<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">mpiwg-hybridpm <<a href="mailto:mpiwg-hybridpm-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org" class="">mpiwg-hybridpm-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>>
on behalf of Jim Dinan via mpiwg-hybridpm <<a href="mailto:mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org" class="">mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 10:09 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Hybrid working group mailing list <<a href="mailto:mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org" class="">mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Jim Dinan <<a href="mailto:james.dinan@gmail.com" class="">james.dinan@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>[mpiwg-hybridpm] Meeting Tomorrow<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
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<b class=""><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class="">External email: Use caution opening links or attachments</span></b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;" class=""></span><span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Hi All,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">The HACC WG will meet at the usual time this Wednesday. Let's continue with the discussion of how to handle the defaults in the memory allocation kinds proposal. Given the discussion from last time, I think it would also
be helpful if folks are able to re-read the proposal before tomorrow's meeting.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class="">Cheers,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""> ~Jim.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="mailto:mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">mpiwg-hybridpm@lists.mpi-forum.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">
<a href="https://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo/mpiwg-hybridpm" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo/mpiwg-hybridpm</a></div>
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