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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’ve never known of any customers to use MPI_Comm_join. As for
MPI_Cancel, yes it gets used, yes it is a big pain for implementers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org
[mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Supalov,
Alexander<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 13, 2010 3:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and Management<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Thanks. Good points. Still, I think what you're really looking for
is a way to say "enough" before basically closing something
down. This is less general than the individual ability to CANCEL
this and that at will at any time: flexible, yes, but cumbersome enough to be
asserted out in one of the proposals.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Anyway, we may want to leave CANCEL alone for the moment. Let's
get back to JOIN. Are there any apps out there that use it still? I think
this was a hack to get around the temporary unavailability of the
proper accept/connect back then. If the hack has lived its useful life, we
may want to deprecate it now.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org
[mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard
Treumann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and Management</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>An application that is really trying to do
overlap of communication and computation is likely to post Isends and Irecvs
before entering a computation step. If the computation step discovers the
answer and another iteration is not needed then why require all the sends and
receives to be done? The application already knows the data is useless.<br>
<br>
A master/worker application may have an outstanding MPI_Irecv at each worker
with tag 1 to pick up workload and an outstanding MPI_Irecv with tag 2 that is
looking for the "all done" message. When the "all done"
shows up, the workload MPI_Irecv needs to be completed before a disconnect can
proceed. Why make the master send a null workload to each worker just to clear
those obsolete MPI_Irecvs?<br>
<br>
The standard has several points at which it states that all outstanding sends
and receives must be complete. If an Isend or Irecv has been posted there are 2
ways to complete it: Make the matching Send or Recv happen or call MPI_Cancel.
The pair of operations MPI_Cancel; MPI_Wait will always complete no matter what
the other side does. As long as the application does not care whether the data
is delivered, this is a clean way to satisfy the requirement that all
outstanding sends and receives must be complete.<br>
<br>
I have not been following the FT stuff but it seems like MPI_Cancel would be
useful there. If I have posted an MPI_Irecv from task 9 and then learned task 9
is gone why wouldn't I want the option of doing an MPI_Cancel on the MPI_Irecv
request? That seems cleaner than any other way of getting rid of the receive
descriptor.<br>
<br>
<br>
Dick Treumann - MPI Team <br>
IBM Systems & Technology Group<br>
Dept X2ZA / MS P963 -- 2455 South Road -- Poughkeepsie, NY 12601<br>
Tele (845) 433-7846 Fax (845) 433-8363<br>
<br>
<br>
<img width=16 height=16 id="_x0000_i1026"
src="cid:image001.gif@01CA9466.7BE4FCE0"
alt="Inactive hide details for "Supalov, Alexander" ---01/13/2010 03:52:11 PM---Thanks. Do we know any active app that uses the JOIN"><span
style='color:#424282'>"Supalov, Alexander" ---01/13/2010 03:52:11
PM---Thanks. Do we know any active app that uses the JOIN still? If none, why
the heck keep it afloat? I</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#5F5F5F'>From:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><img width=1 height=1 id="_x0000_i1028"
src="cid:image003.png@01CA9466.7BE4FCE0"><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"Supalov, Alexander"
<alexander.supalov@intel.com></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#5F5F5F'>To:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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src="cid:image003.png@01CA9466.7BE4FCE0"><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic
Process Control working Group" <mpi3-ft@lists.mpi-forum.org></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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src="cid:image002.png@01CA9466.7BE4FCE0"><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#5F5F5F'>Date:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>01/13/2010 03:52 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#5F5F5F'>Subject:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and
Management</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#5F5F5F'>Sent by:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><img width=1 height=1 id="_x0000_i1036"
src="cid:image003.png@01CA9466.7BE4FCE0"><br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Thanks. Do we know
any active app that uses the JOIN still? If none, why the heck keep it afloat?</span><br>
<br>
<span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>I meant CANCEL in all
its varieties. Again, how many apps cannot live without it?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org
[<a href="mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org">mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Treumann<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 13, 2010 9:48 PM<b><br>
To:</b> MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and Management</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:13.5pt'>Why would JOIN be any less useful today than
in the past? Why would you want to deprecate it? It is a trivial bootstrap for
the simplest form of ACCEPT/CONNECT. It just hides the ACCEPT and CONNECT
operations and lets the user handle the complexity of identifying the two end
points any way he likes. <br>
<br>
I never felt JOIN was needed very badly but it went in as a "what the
heck" decision and I do not see that anything has changed.<br>
<br>
Is it because IJOIN seems more difficult than IACCEPT and ICONNECT in some way?<br>
<br>
When you say CANCEL should be deprecated, do you mean MPI_Cancel of an
outstanding ISEND/IRECV request or something else?<br>
<br>
Dick Treumann - MPI Team <br>
IBM Systems & Technology Group<br>
Dept X2ZA / MS P963 -- 2455 South Road -- Poughkeepsie, NY 12601<br>
Tele (845) 433-7846 Fax (845) 433-8363<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><img border=0 width=16 height=16 id="_x0000_i1039"
src="cid:image001.gif@01CA9466.7BE4FCE0"
alt="Inactive hide details for "Supalov, Alexander" ---01/13/2010 02:53:18 PM---Thanks. I meant the JOIN per se as a way of establis"><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;color:#424282'>"Supalov, Alexander"
---01/13/2010 02:53:18 PM---Thanks. I meant the JOIN per se as a way of
establishing the communicator. Do we need that still? Wh</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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From:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=1 height=1 id="_x0000_i1041"
src="cid:image003.png@01CA9466.7BE4FCE0"><br>
"Supalov, Alexander" <alexander.supalov@intel.com><o:p></o:p></p>
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To:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=1 height=1 id="_x0000_i1043"
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"MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group"
<mpi3-ft@lists.mpi-forum.org><o:p></o:p></p>
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Date:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=1 height=1 id="_x0000_i1045"
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01/13/2010 02:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=1 height=1 id="_x0000_i1047"
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Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and Management<o:p></o:p></p>
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Sent by:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=1 height=1 id="_x0000_i1049"
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mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org<o:p></o:p></p>
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</span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>Thanks. I meant the JOIN per se as a way of establishing the communicator.
Do we need that still? What practically relevant cases can be provided to
justify its continuing existence? If there are none, we should rather deprecate
the JOIN and drop the IJOIN.</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>Good point on the CANCEL.</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>-----Original Message-----</tt><br>
<tt>From: mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org [</tt></span><a
href="mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org"><tt><span style='font-size:
13.5pt'>mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</span></tt></a><tt><span
style='font-size:13.5pt'>] On Behalf Of Josh Hursey</span></tt><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 8:25 PM</tt><br>
<tt>To: MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group</tt><br>
<tt>Subject: Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and Management</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>Since join() does a handshake to create the new communicator, it </tt><br>
<tt>should be delayed by the remote side of the protocol. A nonblocking </tt><br>
<tt>version would allow the application to possibly do other computation </tt><br>
<tt>while waiting for the remote side.</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>As far as Cancel, I have been thinking that it might be useful for </tt><br>
<tt>Accept and Connect. Though with the normal problems of Cancel, I don't
</tt><br>
<tt>know how to really specify it. I want to look into it a bit more </tt><br>
<tt>before next week to see if anything useful can be said of using Cancel
</tt><br>
<tt>with Accept/Connect.</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>-- Josh</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>On Jan 13, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Supalov, Alexander wrote:</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>> Hi,</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> Do we really need the IJOIN thing? I think the JOIN itself should be
</tt><br>
<tt>> deprecated. Just as CANCEL, by the way.</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> Best regards.</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> Alexander</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> -----Original Message-----</tt><br>
<tt>> From: mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org [</tt></span><a
href="mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org"><tt><span style='font-size:
13.5pt'>mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</span></tt></a><tt><span
style='font-size:13.5pt'> </span></tt><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>> ] On Behalf Of Josh Hursey</tt><br>
<tt>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:04 PM</tt><br>
<tt>> To: MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group</tt><br>
<tt>> Subject: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and Management</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> I extended and cleaned up the Nonblocking Process Creation and</tt><br>
<tt>> Management proposal on the wiki:</tt><br>
<tt>> </tt></span><a
href="https://svn.mpi-forum.org/trac/mpi-forum-web/wiki/Async-proc-mgmt"><tt><span
style='font-size:13.5pt'>https://svn.mpi-forum.org/trac/mpi-forum-web/wiki/Async-proc-mgmt</span></tt></a><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> I added the rest of the nonblocking interface proposals, and touched</tt><br>
<tt>> up some of the language. I do not have an implementation yet, but will</tt><br>
<tt>> work on that next. There are a few items that I need to refine a bit</tt><br>
<tt>> still (e.g., MPI_Cancel, mixing of blocking and nonblocking), but this</tt><br>
<tt>> should give us a foundation to start from.</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> I would like to talk about this next week during our working group</tt><br>
<tt>> slot at the MPI Forum meeting.</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> Let me know what you think, and if you see any problems.</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> Thanks,</tt><br>
<tt>> Josh</tt><br>
<tt>></tt><br>
<tt>> _______________________________________________</tt><br>
<tt>> mpi3-ft mailing list</tt><br>
<tt>> mpi3-ft@lists.mpi-forum.org</tt><br>
<tt>> </tt></span><a
href="http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-ft"><tt><span
style='font-size:13.5pt'>http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi3-ft</span></tt></a><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------</tt><br>
<tt>> Intel GmbH</tt><br>
<tt>> Dornacher Strasse 1</tt><br>
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<tt>Intel GmbH</tt><br>
<tt>Dornacher Strasse 1</tt><br>
<tt>85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany</tt><br>
<tt>Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen</tt><br>
<tt>Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer</tt><br>
<tt>Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr.</tt><br>
<tt>VAT Registration No.: DE129385895</tt><br>
<tt>Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052</tt><br>
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<tt>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for</tt><br>
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<pre>---------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Intel GmbH<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Dornacher Strasse 1<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456 Ust.-IdNr.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>VAT Registration No.: DE129385895<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review or distribution<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies.<o:p></o:p></pre></div>
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