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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=653422421-13012010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks. Good points. Still, I think what you're really
looking for is a way to say "enough" before basically closing something
down. This is less general than the individual ability to CANCEL
this and that at will at any time: flexible, yes, but cumbersome enough to be
asserted out in one of the proposals.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=653422421-13012010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=653422421-13012010><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Anyway, we may want to leave CANCEL alone for the moment.
Let's get back to JOIN. Are there any apps out there that use it still? I
think this was a hack to get around the temporary unavailability of the
proper accept/connect back then. If the hack has lived its useful life, we
may want to deprecate it now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org
[mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Richard
Treumann<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 13, 2010 10:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> MPI
3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and Management<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>An application that is really trying to do overlap of communication and
computation is likely to post Isends and Irecvs before entering a computation
step. If the computation step discovers the answer and another iteration is not
needed then why require all the sends and receives to be done? The application
already knows the data is useless.<BR><BR>A master/worker application may have
an outstanding MPI_Irecv at each worker with tag 1 to pick up workload and an
outstanding MPI_Irecv with tag 2 that is looking for the "all done" message.
When the "all done" shows up, the workload MPI_Irecv needs to be completed
before a disconnect can proceed. Why make the master send a null workload to
each worker just to clear those obsolete MPI_Irecvs?<BR><BR>The standard has
several points at which it states that all outstanding sends and receives must
be complete. If an Isend or Irecv has been posted there are 2 ways to complete
it: Make the matching Send or Recv happen or call MPI_Cancel. The pair of
operations MPI_Cancel; MPI_Wait will always complete no matter what the other
side does. As long as the application does not care whether the data is
delivered, this is a clean way to satisfy the requirement that all outstanding
sends and receives must be complete.<BR><BR>I have not been following the FT
stuff but it seems like MPI_Cancel would be useful there. If I have posted an
MPI_Irecv from task 9 and then learned task 9 is gone why wouldn't I want the
option of doing an MPI_Cancel on the MPI_Irecv request? That seems cleaner than
any other way of getting rid of the receive descriptor.<BR><BR><BR>Dick Treumann
- MPI Team <BR>IBM Systems & Technology Group<BR>Dept X2ZA / MS P963 -- 2455
South Road -- Poughkeepsie, NY 12601<BR>Tele (845) 433-7846 Fax (845)
433-8363<BR><BR><BR><IMG height=16
alt='Inactive hide details for "Supalov, Alexander" ---01/13/2010 03:52:11 PM---Thanks. Do we know any active app that uses the JOIN'
src="cid:653422421@13012010-135C" width=16 border=0><FONT
color=#424282>"Supalov, Alexander" ---01/13/2010 03:52:11 PM---Thanks. Do we
know any active app that uses the JOIN still? If none, why the heck keep it
afloat? I</FONT><BR><BR>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="1%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96 border=0><BR><FONT color=#5f5f5f size=2>From:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="100%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1 border=0><BR><FONT size=2>"Supalov, Alexander"
<alexander.supalov@intel.com></FONT></TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="1%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96 border=0><BR><FONT color=#5f5f5f size=2>To:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="100%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1 border=0><BR><FONT size=2>"MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic
Process Control working Group"
<mpi3-ft@lists.mpi-forum.org></FONT></TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="1%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96 border=0><BR><FONT color=#5f5f5f size=2>Date:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="100%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1 border=0><BR><FONT size=2>01/13/2010 03:52 PM</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="1%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96 border=0><BR><FONT color=#5f5f5f size=2>Subject:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="100%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1 border=0><BR><FONT size=2>Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process
Creation and Management</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="1%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96 border=0><BR><FONT color=#5f5f5f size=2>Sent by:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="100%"><IMG height=1 alt="" src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1 border=0><BR><FONT
size=2>mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR style="COLOR: #8091a5" align=left width="100%" noShade SIZE=2>
<BR><BR><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Thanks. Do we know any active app
that uses the JOIN still? If none, why the heck keep it afloat?</FONT><BR><FONT
size=4></FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>I meant CANCEL in all its
varieties. Again, how many apps cannot live without it?</FONT><BR><BR>
<HR align=left width="100%" SIZE=2>
<B><FONT face=Tahoma>From:</FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma>
mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org [</FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><A
href="mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org">mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</A></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma>] </FONT><B><FONT face=Tahoma>On Behalf Of </FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma>Richard Treumann</FONT><B><FONT
face=Tahoma><BR>Sent:</FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma> Wednesday, January 13, 2010
9:48 PM</FONT><B><FONT face=Tahoma><BR>To:</FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma> MPI 3.0
Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working Group</FONT><B><FONT
face=Tahoma><BR>Subject:</FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma> Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking
Process Creation and Management</FONT><FONT size=4><BR></FONT>
<P><FONT size=4>Why would JOIN be any less useful today than in the past? Why
would you want to deprecate it? It is a trivial bootstrap for the simplest form
of ACCEPT/CONNECT. It just hides the ACCEPT and CONNECT operations and lets the
user handle the complexity of identifying the two end points any way he likes.
<BR><BR>I never felt JOIN was needed very badly but it went in as a "what the
heck" decision and I do not see that anything has changed.<BR><BR>Is it because
IJOIN seems more difficult than IACCEPT and ICONNECT in some way?<BR><BR>When
you say CANCEL should be deprecated, do you mean MPI_Cancel of an outstanding
ISEND/IRECV request or something else?<BR><BR>Dick Treumann - MPI Team <BR>IBM
Systems & Technology Group<BR>Dept X2ZA / MS P963 -- 2455 South Road --
Poughkeepsie, NY 12601<BR>Tele (845) 433-7846 Fax (845)
433-8363<BR><BR><BR></FONT><IMG height=16
alt='Inactive hide details for "Supalov, Alexander" ---01/13/2010 02:53:18 PM---Thanks. I meant the JOIN per se as a way of establis'
src="cid:653422421@13012010-135C" width=16><FONT color=#424282 size=4>"Supalov,
Alexander" ---01/13/2010 02:53:18 PM---Thanks. I meant the JOIN per se as a way
of establishing the communicator. Do we need that still? Wh</FONT><FONT
size=4><BR></FONT>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="15%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96><FONT color=#5f5f5f><BR>From:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="85%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1><BR>"Supalov, Alexander" <alexander.supalov@intel.com></TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="15%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96><FONT color=#5f5f5f><BR>To:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="85%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1><BR>"MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working
Group" <mpi3-ft@lists.mpi-forum.org></TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="15%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96><FONT color=#5f5f5f><BR>Date:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="85%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1><BR>01/13/2010 02:53 PM</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="15%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96><FONT color=#5f5f5f><BR>Subject:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="85%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1><BR>Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and
Management</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=top>
<TD width="15%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=96><FONT color=#5f5f5f><BR>Sent by:</FONT></TD>
<TD width="85%"><IMG height=1 src="cid:653422421@13012010-1363"
width=1><BR>mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR align=left width="100%" noShade SIZE=2>
<FONT size=4><BR><BR></FONT><TT><FONT size=4><BR>Thanks. I meant the JOIN per se
as a way of establishing the communicator. Do we need that still? What
practically relevant cases can be provided to justify its continuing existence?
If there are none, we should rather deprecate the JOIN and drop the
IJOIN.<BR><BR>Good point on the CANCEL.<BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org [</FONT></TT><A
href="mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org"><TT><U><FONT color=#0000ff
size=4>mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</FONT></U></TT></A><TT><FONT
size=4>] On Behalf Of Josh Hursey<BR>Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 8:25
PM<BR>To: MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process Control working
Group<BR>Subject: Re: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation and
Management<BR><BR>Since join() does a handshake to create the new communicator,
it <BR>should be delayed by the remote side of the protocol. A nonblocking
<BR>version would allow the application to possibly do other computation
<BR>while waiting for the remote side.<BR><BR>As far as Cancel, I have
been thinking that it might be useful for <BR>Accept and Connect. Though
with the normal problems of Cancel, I don't <BR>know how to really specify
it. I want to look into it a bit more <BR>before next week to see if
anything useful can be said of using Cancel <BR>with
Accept/Connect.<BR><BR>-- Josh<BR><BR>On Jan 13, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Supalov,
Alexander wrote:<BR><BR>> Hi,<BR>><BR>> Do we really need the IJOIN
thing? I think the JOIN itself should be <BR>> deprecated. Just as
CANCEL, by the way.<BR>><BR>> Best regards.<BR>><BR>>
Alexander<BR>><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From:
mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org [</FONT></TT><A
href="mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org"><TT><U><FONT color=#0000ff
size=4>mailto:mpi3-ft-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</FONT></U></TT></A><TT><FONT
size=4> <BR>> ] On Behalf Of Josh Hursey<BR>> Sent: Tuesday, January
12, 2010 11:04 PM<BR>> To: MPI 3.0 Fault Tolerance and Dynamic Process
Control working Group<BR>> Subject: [Mpi3-ft] Nonblocking Process Creation
and Management<BR>><BR>> I extended and cleaned up the Nonblocking Process
Creation and<BR>> Management proposal on the wiki:<BR>>
</FONT></TT><A
href="https://svn.mpi-forum.org/trac/mpi-forum-web/wiki/Async-proc-mgmt"><TT><U><FONT
color=#0000ff
size=4>https://svn.mpi-forum.org/trac/mpi-forum-web/wiki/Async-proc-mgmt</FONT></U></TT></A><TT><FONT
size=4><BR>><BR>> I added the rest of the nonblocking interface proposals,
and touched<BR>> up some of the language. I do not have an implementation
yet, but will<BR>> work on that next. There are a few items that I need to
refine a bit<BR>> still (e.g., MPI_Cancel, mixing of blocking and
nonblocking), but this<BR>> should give us a foundation to start
from.<BR>><BR>> I would like to talk about this next week during our
working group<BR>> slot at the MPI Forum meeting.<BR>><BR>> Let me know
what you think, and if you see any problems.<BR>><BR>> Thanks,<BR>>
Josh<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>>
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