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<p><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Thank you for changing your tone.</font><br>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">I apologize for offending you with the word "eradicate". The term seemed to fit the actual work being done, though, which was essentially search for all "MPI::" and "C++" references in the MPI Standard document and remove them.</font><br>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">All this being said, there are some pretty harsh accusations below. I don't feel I deserve them, and am certain that IBM does not.</font><br>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Douglas Miller BlueGene Messaging Development<br>
IBM Corp., Rochester, MN USA Bldg 030-2 A401<br>
dougmill@us.ibm.com Douglas Miller/Rochester/IBM</font><br>
<br>
<img width="16" height="16" src="cid:1__=09BBF0BADFE35A4C8f9e8a93df938@us.ibm.com" border="0" alt="Inactive hide details for Jeff Hammond ---06/26/2012 03:27:36 PM---Jeff Hammond <jhammond@alcf.anl.gov>"><font size="2" color="#424282" face="sans-serif">Jeff Hammond ---06/26/2012 03:27:36 PM---Jeff Hammond <jhammond@alcf.anl.gov></font><br>
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<ul style="padding-left: 72pt"><font size="1" face="sans-serif"><b>Jeff Hammond <jhammond@alcf.anl.gov></b></font><font size="1" face="sans-serif"> </font><br>
<font size="1" face="sans-serif">Sent by: mpi-forum-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org</font>
<p><font size="1" face="sans-serif">06/26/2012 03:11 PM</font>
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<tr valign="top"><td width="168" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div align="center"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org></font></div></td></tr>
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<ul style="padding-left: 7pt"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org>, </font></ul>
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<div align="right"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">cc</font></div></td><td width="100%"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=09BBF0BADFE35A4C8f9e8a93df938@us.ibm.com" border="0" alt=""><br>
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<div align="right"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div></td><td width="100%"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:3__=09BBF0BADFE35A4C8f9e8a93df938@us.ibm.com" border="0" alt=""><br>
<ul style="padding-left: 7pt"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [Mpi-forum] C++ types inaccessible after #281</font></ul>
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<tt><font size="2">There is a huge difference between deprecating support for C++<br>
_bindings_ and deprecating support for C++ _altogether_. The ticket<br>
is about the C++ bindings. What Jed and I are trying to do is make<br>
sure that the C _bindings_ allow users to work effectively within C++,<br>
which means support std::complex<float/double/long double>. Such<br>
support already exists in MPI 2.2, but it requires changing "::" to<br>
"_" so that one can use them with the C interface.<br>
<br>
It is absolutely true that the Forum wants better C++ bindings and<br>
will kill the original ones to make this happen. However, you are the<br>
first and only person who has suggested that the goal is to remove<br>
support for C++ completely. I believe that your statement "I thought<br>
the point of 281 was to eradicate C++ from the standard" is completely<br>
wrong and made with malice aforethought. You're trying to rewrite<br>
history to further your campaign to punish C++ programmers.<br>
<br>
Many members of the Forum have made it clear that the goal is to<br>
support C++ via the C bindings. That does not mean eradicating C++<br>
from the standard. I assume that there will be text expressing the<br>
Forum's believe that the C bindings are sufficient for C++, so clearly<br>
there should be at least one mention of C++ in the standard.<br>
<br>
As I said before, the right way to support C++ datatypes for the C<br>
bindings is to restrict them to when a C++ compiler is used. That<br>
solves your issue with not having a C++ compiler. I don't see why<br>
you're arguing about the scenario when you don't have a C++ compiler.<br>
Do you really have this use case as an implementer or are you just<br>
making up silly arguments as part of your campaign of hate against<br>
C++?<br>
<br>
It is my understanding that your actions in regards to ticket #281 are<br>
approved by IBM. If this ticket is not supported by IBM, then it<br>
would make me happy to hear this.<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Douglas Miller <dougmill@us.ibm.com> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Jeff, This is inappropriate. Especially targeting IBM like that, and on a public mailing list. Ticket 281 has had plenty of discussions and passed votes. This is/was a Forum decision. The fact that I agreed with it, and volunteered to do a lot of the work, is why I am voicing my opinion on this. We (the Forum) have said all along that anyone that has a better design for C++ bindings should bring that forward and make a proposal. Getting rid of the current, often considered "broken", C++ bindings is a good way to ensure any future proposal is free to change the design.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Douglas Miller BlueGene Messaging Development<br>
> IBM Corp., Rochester, MN USA Bldg 030-2 A401<br>
> dougmill@us.ibm.com Douglas Miller/Rochester/IBM<br>
><br>
> Jeff Hammond ---06/26/2012 02:09:59 PM---Jeff Hammond <jhammond@alcf.anl.gov><br>
><br>
> Jeff Hammond <jhammond@alcf.anl.gov><br>
> Sent by: mpi-forum-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org<br>
><br>
> 06/26/2012 01:57 PM<br>
><br>
> Please respond to<br>
> Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org><br>
><br>
><br>
> To<br>
><br>
> Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org>,<br>
><br>
><br>
> cc<br>
><br>
><br>
> Subject<br>
><br>
> Re: [Mpi-forum] C++ types inaccessible after #281<br>
><br>
><br>
> Why do you want to make it so damn hard for anyone to use MPI in C++ codes? You don't even have to do anything to support C++ because BG-MPI is based upon MPICH2.<br>
><br>
> Can't we just for once try to take user needs into consideration instead of trying to reduce the workload of implementers as much as possible?<br>
><br>
> Users matter. In IBM land, they are called customers. I assure you that some of your largest customers care a great deal about using MPI within C++.<br>
><br>
> You're going out of your way to try and punish your customers for using C++. Can't you just leave them alone? Maybe we - the customers - need to leave IBM alone.<br>
><br>
> Jeff<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Douglas Miller <dougmill@us.ibm.com> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I think the issue is just that how can a standard that does not specify how C++ fits into things (after ticket 281) then go on to define a data type in terms of C++ types? If there is a need for a C (not C++) complex datatype, that should be a new proposal. But that datatype should not, in my opinion, be defined in terms of something like std::complex. If a platform does not support something like C99 complex types, then it will have to implement complex types and ops itself, or be incomplete.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Douglas Miller BlueGene Messaging Development<br>
> IBM Corp., Rochester, MN USA Bldg 030-2 A401<br>
> dougmill@us.ibm.com Douglas Miller/Rochester/IBM<br>
><br>
> Jeff Hammond ---06/26/2012 12:31:52 PM---Jeff Hammond <jhammond@alcf.anl.gov><br>
><br>
> Jeff Hammond <jhammond@alcf.anl.gov><br>
> Sent by: mpi-forum-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org<br>
><br>
> 06/26/2012 12:21 PM<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Please respond to<br>
> Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org><br>
> To<br>
><br>
> Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org>,<br>
><br>
> cc<br>
> Subject<br>
><br>
> Re: [Mpi-forum] C++ types inaccessible after #281<br>
><br>
><br>
> as far as i'm concerned, these types are only valid with the C bindings when a C++ compiler is used. does that solve it?<br>
><br>
> jeff<br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Douglas Miller <dougmill@us.ibm.com> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I've got to raise a concern here. If we start defining MPI datatypes to be C++ types then how will an implementation support that with only a C compiler? I thought the point of 281 was to eradicate C++ from the standard (and start over later if C++ was to be defined in the standard).<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Douglas Miller BlueGene Messaging Development<br>
> IBM Corp., Rochester, MN USA Bldg 030-2 A401<br>
> dougmill@us.ibm.com Douglas Miller/Rochester/IBM<br>
><br>
> Jed Brown ---06/26/2012 11:26:16 AM---Jed Brown <jedbrown@mcs.anl.gov><br>
><br>
> Jed Brown <jedbrown@mcs.anl.gov><br>
> Sent by: mpi-forum-bounces@lists.mpi-forum.org<br>
><br>
> 06/26/2012 11:14 AM<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Please respond to<br>
><br>
> Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org><br>
> To<br>
><br>
> Main MPI Forum mailing list <mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org>,<br>
><br>
> cc<br>
> Subject<br>
><br>
> Re: [Mpi-forum] C++ types inaccessible after #281<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 6:13 AM, Jeff Squyres <jsquyres@cisco.com> wrote:<br>
><br>
> There are a few C++-specific datatypes for which it would be worth introducing new C datatypes (e.g., MPI_CXX_COMPLEX). It's too bad that no one realized this until now, because this won't make the MPI-3 deadline. But it could be part of MPI-3.1 or errata, or some such.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Two people in offline discussions have suggested that C bindings to the std::complex types (I'm not aware of anything else that #281 will lose) might qualify as ticket 0._______________________________________________<br>
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> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Jeff Hammond<br>
> Argonne Leadership Computing Facility<br>
> University of Chicago Computation Institute<br>
> jhammond@alcf.anl.gov / (630) 252-5381<br>
> </font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhammond">http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhammond</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"><br>
> </font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="https://wiki.alcf.anl.gov/parts/index.php/User:Jhammond(See">https://wiki.alcf.anl.gov/parts/index.php/User:Jhammond(See</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"> attached file: pic32424.gif)_______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> mpi-forum mailing list<br>
> mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org<br>
> </font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi-forum">http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi-forum</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Jeff Hammond<br>
> Argonne Leadership Computing Facility<br>
> University of Chicago Computation Institute<br>
> jhammond@alcf.anl.gov / (630) 252-5381<br>
> </font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhammond">http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhammond</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"><br>
> </font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="https://wiki.alcf.anl.gov/parts/index.php/User:Jhammond(See">https://wiki.alcf.anl.gov/parts/index.php/User:Jhammond(See</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"> attached file: pic08490.gif)_______________________________________________<br>
> mpi-forum mailing list<br>
> mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org<br>
> </font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi-forum">http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi-forum</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> mpi-forum mailing list<br>
> mpi-forum@lists.mpi-forum.org<br>
> </font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi-forum">http://lists.mpi-forum.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/mpi-forum</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Jeff Hammond<br>
Argonne Leadership Computing Facility<br>
University of Chicago Computation Institute<br>
jhammond@alcf.anl.gov / (630) 252-5381<br>
</font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhammond">http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffhammond</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"><br>
</font></tt><tt><font size="2"><a href="https://wiki.alcf.anl.gov/parts/index.php/User:Jhammond">https://wiki.alcf.anl.gov/parts/index.php/User:Jhammond</a></font></tt><tt><font size="2"><br>
<br>
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